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UP! 255// Hippy - The Final Chapter // 01
07 07
"The UP! gets better and
better."
Jon Evans, Caerphilly, Wales.
UP!
\)))))(/
____,,,,_{ô¿ô}_,,,,_fraser
well,
and so goodbye tony
blair. you
caused many deaths, like the backward-looking
dinosaur your market research told you not to be. and now your Middle
East Peace envoyship has caused the death of
irony too, rendering me... speechless.
UP!
"Most recent UP.. totally amazing.
thanks!"
Jasper Vader, Tokyo.
UP!
london
THURSDAY JULY 5
Hippy - The Final Chapter
THE
HIPPIES WERE RIGHT! from first to last
SO
REASSESS AND "DROP OUT" FAST!
- an ambient lecture (with demo movies) by Fraser Clark.
To 60s Hippies the dominant greed-crazed, competitive, personally
repressed, anti-Nature society looked insane and a threat to EVERYONE, even the
rich within it.
DROPPING OUT was a brave, personal decision to reduce your consumption
(and your carbon footprint) by 75%. Millions of good people accepted
that's what the planet needed, and hundreds of thousands have continued ever
since - unreported on the celebrity charts.
Had everyone possessed the insight and courage to do
the same (and you didn't need much insight - the facts were quite well known
then!), we would today be passing on to the next generation a beautiful,
healthily preserved, sensitively developed garden planet, instead of this
shameful, toxic, deeply disturbed mess.
Now people are beginning
to be forced to make those changes. Welcome aboard Yuppies!
Trendies! Punks! Metal Heads! Geeks! Corporates!
Smart Asses!
MOVIES: Milos Forman's 'HAIR, The Movie'
(with commentary by Fraser) and Peter Whitehead's 'Tonite, Let's All Make
Love In London!'
“Intelligent alternative people today
understand how the Matrix demonises any threat - so rewind history and look past the
non-stop, decades-long, negative propaganda that's been projected about the biggest “Peace, Love & Green" Movement in
human history. Believe me, the Matrix was shaken to its very foundations, and it hit back
ruthlessly with every black op & propaganda tool in its armoury.
“And, short-sighted as ever, the greedy Dinosaurs ensured that the Danger that was well on
the way to being averted has now reached Global Catastrophic proportions." Fraser Clark.
FREE @ RampArt Social Centre, 15-17 Rampart Street, E1 2LA
(Shadwell tube + DLR & East London
Line.) Just off Commercial
Road (not to be
confused with nearby Commercial
Street.) 8-12ish pm. Doors open 7.30pm.
Awkward to find so check map on
www.rampart.co.nr
UP!
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Get UP! Stand
Up For Your Rights! (and
everybody else's too of course! :)
u can't understand the world without
innerstanding yourself
UP! 255 01 07 07
LA-
LA- LA- LAP-TOPPLING DA SYSTEM!
u cant innerstand yourself without
understanding the world
Get UP! And Don't Give Up The Fight! (only we don't mean violence, ok? :)
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FEATURING exclusive re-writes &
re-mixes of da freshest deepest hacks ancient
& modern ,and
SAMPLES from media & mentalities all over,
& all bubbling up! from
da public DNA Herself!
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contents...
p.04
DINOSAUR
HEALTH 1
- Vaccinated Children in Danger!
p.05 DINOSAUR HEALTH 2 - Do Mammograms Cause Breast Cancer?
p.06 Tony Blair /
Peace Envoy / Irony Is Dead :(
p.07 Glastonbury Festival FEEDBACK
p.08 Roswell Breeding
'Coincidence' FEEDBACK
p.08 Salman
Award FEEDBACK
p.10 Young Americans Leaning Left As Post Dinosaur Era Marches On
UP!
"Subscribe
me to your fabbo ravings please!"
Jackie Juno, Manchester.
UP!
\)))))(/
_____,,,,_{ô¿ô}_,,,,___fraser
i've finally grokked something absolutely fundamental
about the logic of terrorism.
i sort of generally intuited it before but the impeccable
military/industrial logic involved came as a bit of a revelation.
the following are
not my opinions. my opinions don't matter and neither do yours or
anyone's. these are simple sociological FACTS.
when a 'community'
(in whatever sense
the inhabitants define it) is invaded and/or occupied, the response comes in
gradations.
i. any kind of standing army is
sent into battle. if they are defeated or never had a chance anyway, the
next step is...
ii. unable to resist head to head,
the invades turn to guerrilla
war, sporadically
and unpredictably attacking the enemy and his positions, then disappearing
before it can retaliate properly. a guerrilla war gives the defenders
much more chance: they might wear the invader down, dispirit him, and
particularly his taxpaying public back home.
however, if this goes on for years and years and the occupying enemy is so
strong that he's able to insulate and entrench his forces more and more
successfully while also establishing physical and psychological "facts on
the ground", what can be done then?
iii. the invaded 'martyrs,' 'freedom fighters' and 'nationalists' start to go for 'soft' targets; meaning indirect military
assets. they hit the occupying enemy's personnel, his civilians, his
supply, transport and communication facilities, both in the occupied community
and, if possible, in the enemy's home country. remember, this is
not my opinion, and it's totally apart from any of our 'moral' opinions, it's
like a chemical reaction it DOES happen if the other things happen first.
and there's no point in feeling that humans should be better than that, that
it's sub-human to bomb schools, say, cos there WILL be some of a higher spiritual
dimension but, in any community, a certain number WILL do it and this has
to be taken into consideration before you enter the aggression into the
system. and if u haven't noticed this exact process over the past few
years in the middle east then you can only be blinding yourself.
all of the above gradations of self-defence are logical and obvious. and,
judged as freedom fighting, even accepted as legitimate.
but what happens if, as uniquely happens today, the enemy invader is so powerful
and technologically superior that even his 'soft' targets are pretty damn hard to approach or penetrate?
can anything be done then? are the 'patriots' forced simply to
hang up their weapons and accept the fact on the ground? in some countries this has happened. in others
suicide bombing will be tried, as we see in palestine, iraq, and elsewhere.
but how much can
that actually achieve if the enemy is determined to stay? if he has
settled into an indefinite occupation where he is trying to actually establish a
new 'normality' that he hopes will eventually
be accepted by the majority (often called the 'moderates') as a 'fact on the ground'?
now
here comes my realisation:
iv. this is when the national
defence forces shift to asymmetric defense - like we see in iraq today, and which seems so 'illogical'.
IT IS NOT, IT IS INEVITABLE & IT IS THOROUGHLY LOGICAL. never
mind soft targets and suicide bombers, THE DEFENDERS SET OUT TO MAKE THE
SOCIETY WHICH THE OCCUPIER IS TRYING TO DOMINATE UNWORKABLE! THEY DESTROY
WHATEVER THEY CAN REACH. ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES, WATER, all the basic
amenities whose presence might lull the more passive 'apoliticals' into acceptance of the
occupation. THEY MIGHT EVEN INITIATE CIVIL WAR BETWEEN SECTIONS OF THE
INVADED COMMUNITY - IN SHORT, ANYTHING THAT RENDERS THE INVADED SOCIETY DYSFUNCTIONAL.
in a weird but quite logical sense, the resistance forces thus establish a stalemate, a kind of draw. neither
side can win.
THEY BASICALLY MAKE THE POINT: WE MIGHT BE UNABLE TO RUN OUR OWN
COMMUNITY, BUT YOU CAN'T RUN IT EITHER!
and thus, since it costs very much less to drive a van to a crowded
market or religious centre or even a ladies' toilet and blow up innocents than
to maintain a nation-wide security apparatus to prevent such acts, the
nationalists can hope to 'turn' the enemy's dominance into a bankrupted
failure that
eventually leads the enemy to admit defeat and leave.
it may be immoral, it may be horrendous, but it is NOT 'irrational' or 'illogical'
as it's always reported in our official media. it is, in fact, the INEVITABLE consequence of feeding
aggression into a system.
up!
Al Quada have been blamed for the recent flooding in Yorkshire.
When a Muslim drove his car into the Ulley
reservoir
a police spokesman
thought this might be the beginning of Ram a dam.
UP!
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TEXT JOCKEY //TJ PHRASER (Fraser Clark) & THE MEDIA EVOLUTION
MIXING THE TRACTS LIVE ON THE KEYBOARD
@ A MEDIA-MEME RATE OF 160 IPP * * Ideas Per Paragraph
TO SUBSCRIBE SOMEONE, WRITE I wanna get UP! TO fraser@parallel-youniversity.com
TO UNSUBSCRIBE, HIT REPLY WITH REMOVE IN
THE SUBJECT BOX
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Will
You Dance with Me?
i was brought up to doubt myself, deny myself and
hide myself.
"ooh, you
shine a bit too brightly, missy, just sit over there in the corner and
don't say anything, and hopefully everything will be all right."
and every time i
twitched or muttered, they'd be onto me, jumping up in their seats, "what's she doing now?
keep an eye on her, that one."
but i grew strong
and i grew sneaky and i learnt to dance on the tables when their backs were
turned. and now i love dancing on the tables so much i don't ever want to
stop. soon they're going to turn around and see me, and it's going to
freak them out a bit at first, but the more of us that keep dancing, and the
harder we dance, the quicker we can turn those tables and create a fucking
revolution.
miss magic, brighton & the world.
http://www.myspace.com/katemagic
UP!
UP!s BADDEST T-SHIRT OF THE WEEK
(send in examples pls :)
I
FUCK ON
THE FIRST
DATE
Please forgive the indelicacy but I think it's good,
so there.
Much respect for your burblings an'at,
Hoppingglad, Oxford,
Old England.
P.S. Keep smiling, it confuses the enemy.
UP!
DINOSAUR HEALTH 1
Vaccinated
Children Two and a Half Times More Likely
To Have Neurological
Disorders Like ADHD and Autism
A new survey indicates a
strong correlation between rates of neurological disorders, such as ADHD and autism, and childhood
vaccinations.
The survey, commissioned by Generation
Rescue, compared vaccinated and unvaccinated
children. Among more than 9,000 boys age 4-17, the survey found
vaccinated boys were
- two
and a half times (155%) more likely to have neurological disorders
compared to their unvaccinated peers
- 224%
more likely to have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)
- 61%
more likely to have autism.
For older vaccinated boys in
the 11-17 age bracket, the results were even
more pronounced. Vaccinated boys
were
- 158%
more likely to have a neurological disorder
- 317%
more likely to have ADHD
- 112%
more likely to have autism.
Generation Rescue discovered these facts via a phone survey in which data
was gathered by SurveyUSA, a national market research firm, which surveyed parents
on more than 17,000 children, ages 4-17, in 5 counties in California
and 4 counties in Oregon.
Amazingly, nobody
had ever done such easy research!! CAN U BELIEVE THAT?! Indeed in the words of J.B. Handley, co-founder of
Generation Rescue: "No one has
ever compared prevalence rates of these neurological disorders between
vaccinated and unvaccinated children. The phone survey isn't perfect, but these
numbers point to the need for a comprehensive national study to gather this
critical information."
I SHOULD BLUDDY WELL THINK SO!!!!
In Washington,
Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) who has been advocating for such a survey
said: "Generation Rescue's study is
impressive and forcefully raises some serious questions about the relationship
between vaccines and autism. What is ultimately needed to resolve this
issue is a comprehensive national study of vaccinated and unvaccinated
children. The parents behind Generation Rescue only want information.
These parents deserve more than road blocks, they deserve answers. That's why I
have introduced a common sense bill that would require the National Institutes
of Health (NIH) to conduct a comprehensive, comparative study on the possible
link between autism and thimerosal."
IS THIS TOO
MUCH TO EXPECT IN A DEMOCRACY??!! Especially when you consider that, from 1983 to 2007, autism
rates have climbed from 1 in 10,000 children
to 1 in 150 children, a growth rate of 6,000%. ADHD currently affects
1 in 13 children. In the same period, the recommended vaccine schedule more
than tripled.
http://www.generationrescue.org
up!
DINOSAUR HEALTH 1
Do Mammograms Cause Breast Cancer?
Many women depend upon yearly
mammograms to warn them of possible breast cancer. Yet, as Dr. Blaylock
points out in The Blaylock Wellness
Report, studies show mammograms actually increase your risk of developing breast cancer from 1-3% per year, depending
on the technique used.
Now that may not sound like a lot. However, if
you religiously undergo a mammogram every year for 10 years, you increase your
risk from 10-30% (and some radiation experts feel the danger is much higher
than that).
Why? Because the breast is one of your body's most
sensitive areas when it comes to cancers caused by radiation exposure.
Compounding that, by the age of 50, a full 45% of
women will have cancer cells in their breasts. This doesn't mean they
will all develop breast cancer, because in most women these cancer cells remain
dormant.
But what it does mean is that, if you are one
of these 45% of women, you are at high risk of spurring these cancer cells to full
activity.
NewsMax.com
UP!
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the UP! is a global edutainment round-up,
broadcast weekly to =[13,035]=
Alternative// Activist// Zippy// Trance//
New Age// Peace folks
recommended to the Parallel
YOUniversity// Megatripolis Dance Dept as
"showing signs of life". Since recipients
forward it widely to their own lists & sites
we conservatively estimate 50,000+ direct
recipients.
A further 40,000 read it on the YOUniversity's site.
And, because of its 'mix' of 'specialist' & 'general' content,
it's increasingly being posted on a variety of sites worldwide,
making an estimated total weekly readership of =[275,000]=
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Everyone The US Fights In Iraq
Is Now "Al-Qaida"
One
of the most astonishing instances of mindless, pro-government "reporting" yet: it's
a curious thing that, over the past 10 - 12 days, the news from Iraq
refers to the combatants there as "al-Qaida" fighters. When did that happen? ...
All of a sudden, every time one of the top US
military commanders describes the latest operations or quantifies how many were
killed, the enemy is referred to, almost exclusively now, as "Al Qaeda." But what is even more notable is that the establishment press
there has followed right along, just as enthusiastically.
>> it's true! the obviously amateur and
homegrown london
bommings were mostly reported as Al Queda attacks.
up!
and, talking about
the "terrible" near tragedies in the UK, check out this little list that
day and LET'S ALL HANG OUR HEADS IN SHAME!
UK Terror Threat "Critical"
as Glasgow
Attacked
"Britain
was braced last night for a fresh wave of terrorist attacks as the national
threat level was raised to 'critical' following an attempted car bombing of Glasgow airport," write Mark Townsend, Jo Revill
and Paul Kelbie, The Observer UK.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/070107B.shtml
VV
"Up to 80 Civilians Dead" After
US Air Strikes in Afghanistan
"Air strikes in the British-controlled Helmand province of Afghanistan may have killed civilians,
coalition troops said yesterday as local people claimed that between 50 and 80
people, many of them women and children, had died."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/070107A.shtml
UP!
Tony Blair / Peace Envoy / Irony Is Dead
when i heard the news i realised that irony is dead - just as
yanks are beginning to get it!
here's a regular reader's letter:
Did I hear right?! The EU, UN (World
'leaders') reckon Tony Blair should become a full time (was it?) 'ambassador'
or 'peace envoy' to the Middle East??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean it's arguably a bigger mistake than our Royals giving prizes to Salman
Rushdie, which makes me suspicious.
It could be a cunning plot that allows Tony to fully appreciate the fire he's
helped stoke. Or perhaps the idea is 'BL-AIR DISASTER'
(in The Sun) when his chinoock is gunned down by heavy fire over Iraq's new
poppy fields, near the Iranian border. [Note: just as suicide bombing
becomes vogue in Afghanistan,
opium becomes the cash crop of choice in Iraq = Total War].
Perhaps such a 'Spectacular Exit' in the Middle East would serve the guilty,
complicit, psychopathic and criminally insane better than, say, a war crime
tribunal in the Hague?
There must be some people out there who think this is a 'win-win'. Jesus,
imagine a state like Iran or
Syria
was blamed (for his plane crash).
Other than permanently moving to Florida,
could Blair possibly secure himself a worse legacy? (I just can't
see Gaza
working out for the Blairs). Of course, that won't happen. If Blair
was to get shot down, kidnapped or anything else anywhere in the Middle East, it would be a proper job - regardless of who
was doing it. I guess the point is that everyone has a motive; even the
friends for whom he is a liability due to Iraq.
Surely no-one actually believes that the man who put the co into
'coalition of the willing' and helped obliterate other peoples' homes, lives
and environment against all international guidance and law is going to all of a
sudden endear himself to the region he's helped partially destroy. I suppose
he needn't even try and endear himself. A man who sells war and who then,
when his war doesn't work out, sells peace, must be quite struck by the
enormity of his task. Not least by a profound sense of irony.
Apparently not....
With ongoing misery unfolding daily in Afghanistan
and Iraq how can anybody
seriously consider Blair as an 'envoy' for the Middle East?
There must be more plausible motives for encouraging this man's rampant ego and
naivety.
Perhaps a 'coalition of the unwilling' should nominate Tony Blair for an
International War Crimes Tribunal before he settles into his new job (or moves
to California).
>> or joins his wars criminal buddy Bush,
in Dubai, where half a billion bucks will guarantee u immunity with swimming
pools and gold taps for life.
marc deeley, london.
UP!
Glastonbury Festival FEEDBACK
hi, I think your comments about michael eavis are mean spirited and small
minded,
>> i considered that perception.
but in the end i decided i would be being immoral if i said nothing.
he may not have set up the original glastonbury
by himself but he has kept it going and made it a huge success, who cares if he
made some money about doing it
>> i did say he should keep SOME of
the literally millions he stashed away in carrier bags. and i DO know
about this because of our court case..
or if some people feel he underpaid them, it is
all typical of the anti capitalist dream that anyone in this country that has
success is derided by those that think they and only they have some kind of
moral high ground,
>> am not saying that, and i largely
agree actually. but if u had heard ALL the complaints that i received...
i have felt he should have had a knighthood
years ago not a measly cbe. as far as salman rushdie is concerned , i have
never read any of his work nor have 99.99999% of muslims i should think , but i
reckon he has had a pretty scary time of it for writing what he felt he should
write and i admire his guts. freedom of speech is of paramount importance
and he deserves an honour for defending it, whether giving him one now is a
good idea for this country is another matter as it will probably bring down the
wrath of the muslim fundamentalists on us in some way as violence seems to be
their way of protest.
Charles Style, Reading,
UK
>> uno, it's inneresting that most people
who've written in on this have called those muslims bullies. inneresting
when u consider that they seem to be assuming that killing a million muslims is
NOT bullying. as i see it, killing a million is some kinda
statement! so we should shut up for a while yes?
up!
>> michael eavis is not a
BAD man,
this is where I differ. He is a nasty, scheming
bully who has made millions out of the festival, and bought up land from his
neighbours until he must now be the largest landowner in the county. He
realised early on that if he gave a contribution to a charity like Greenpeace
or Oxfam, people would think of him as a good guy doing it all for
charity. The donations represent a tiny portion of the profits.
I witnessed him once at the farmhouse screaming abuse at an entirely
inoffensive young couple who had come to the festival by horse and cart, had
been told to put their horse to graze in a field above the Greenfield, and the
horse had strayed somehow into a neighbours field and started eating
apples. Eavis was apoplectic, real nasty bullying vitriol, I felt like
decking him myself there and then.
He also employed known gangsters from Bristol as security even after they has
raped one woman, beaten up many nippy travellers, were known to be selling
smack, and had put another traveller in hospital for litter picking AFTER the
festival - which lots of people did as festival goers can 'lose' or dump all
manner of useful stuff which travellers then recycle.
>> he also avoided or refused to
compensate poor James Yellow Submarine who died (of a broken heart?) last week.
And remember, Eavis is a dairy farmer, and for the rest of the year is engaged
in white suffering - sending calves to be murdered so he can profit from the
milk.
>> i once sued michael for screwing me
around and then refusing to pay the expenses involved. i won.
you have my admiration for standing up to the bully!
>> but the case had been so clear and straightforward that i puzzled over
why he’d allowed the matter to go to court. the answer seems to be
that few people ever stood up to him. during that time, indeed, i was
contacted with bitter complaints by SO many little people reliant on the
festival for their living and afraid to protest openly that i was
shocked. i’ll probly get a hundred such emails for publishing this.
you appear to be under no illusions, yet are still prepared to say he isn't a
bad man?
>> "I'm so pleased at this honour not only for myself, but for
the hundreds and perhaps thousands of people who have supported my ideas
through thick and thin." Michael Eavis on receipt of the
award.
his ideas indeed, he's a user, sees himself as superior in every way to the
little people who he allows on his farm to make him money. He likes to
lord it over them, makes him feel even more special. I have long detested
him.
peterpassword, wales.
up!
"I am convinced there are genuine and valid levels
of perception available with cannabis (and probably with other drugs) which
are, through the defects of our society
and our educational system, unavailable
to us without such drugs." Carl Sagan.
UP!
Glastonbury In Comfort And
Privacy
Dave
Matty spent the weekend hanging out at the 'other'
side of Glastonbury
and not seeing any major bands at all!. He's blogging his report on the
BBC.
The TiPi village is unlike any other field at Glastonbury. Inhabited mostly by
full-time TiPi dwellers who reside in 'TiPi Valley' in Llandeilo, Wales,
there's a strong sense of shared-community here.
It's part of nature, living with nature. It's a
village, it's a commune. Hippies, diggers, dreamers, chanting, drumming, washing, sustainable-living,
wood-chopping, tea-brewing, juggling; even mud-wrestling! It's a survival lifestyle.
Some years ago, regular TiPi dwellers pitched extra
TiPis in the field and hired them out for the weekend. Anyone with
£1,400 to spare could rent a TiPi and live amongst real TiPi people for a
truly authentic Glastonbury experience. It was a great
alternative to camping in 'babylon' (green-field slang for the non green-fields). The
TiPi field was safer and quieter and the TiPi 'lodges', as they were known,
were warmer and more comfortable to sleep in. It was also considered to
be 'cool'
to hang out with the hippies for the weekend.
Those hiring the lodges were making lots of money and
soon many others were doing the same. But before long there were so many
hired TiPis that the field quickly became overcrowded. There wasn't much
room for the 'real' TiPi people anymore. There were also concerns that
those renting the lodges were 'outsiders'; city-people who didn't
understand or participate in, communal TiPi living.
I spoke to Mike, a TiPi dweller who has been coming
to Glastonbury since 1971.
"The TiPi field has traditionally been full of
people who own their own TiPis or have lived in TiPis or who know how to live
in TiPis. There's a certain 'realness' about it."
So this year, Michael Eavis has set aside a special
field exclusively for hired lodges. But you'll have to search hard to
find it. It's outside the perimeter fence, across a bridge and closed to
anyone else. But a friend and I managed to blag our way in for a nose
around.
There are private, clean porta-loos; a sauna and a
cosy but expensive cafe (replete with drum-kit for whoever is performing that
night). The lodges are also dry and spacious. But there are few
fires burning inside and no sign of communal cooking or wood-chopping.
There's no 'vibe' like the real TiPi field and it seems too 'separate' from
the rest of the festival. Too 'exclusive' to be part of it. My
friend compared it to a Butlins holiday camp, with TiPis instead of chalets. All
that seemed to be missing was a PA system to wake everyone up in the morning
with a jolly, "Hi-Di-Hi!".
Many of the residents here had missed-out on
purchasing tickets for the festival and hiring a TiPi with tickets included was
the only alternative. Others had chosen to hire a TiPi for the comfort
and privacy it afforded. I spoke to two Glastonbury
first-timers who had hired a TiPi for the weekend.
"We get showers, we get a sauna and we get our
own toilets which aren't as disgusting as the other ones" said one. "It's
brilliant. There's more space here and there's an excellent cafe,
too", said another.
The new field seems a great idea if you want to
experience the festival in comfort and style, without the hassle of bringing
your own camping gear or trying to pitch your tent in the mud or braving the
toilets. But isn't getting wet and muddy what Glastonbury's all about?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/glastonbury/2007/greenfields/tipi.shtml
UP!
Roswell Breeding
Coincidence FEEDBACK
Hi Fraseer, still enjoying your work. But the Roswell
Coincidence in UP! 254 just didn't ring true. May I refer you to
http//:www.snopes.com/politics/humor/roswell.asp
Keep on keeping on,
nick fosbery, paris.
>> it was a joke a joke! :)
this is not 4 u, nik, but here's what i sent to a
good friend who wrote in what u wrote in:
i considered putting a '
:)
' at the end of
the alien breeding line but decided none of my readers were dumb enuff to
misunderstand where i was coming from. me and my assumptions its terrible
:(
(actually i inserted the
smiley in the last 5000 UP!s after the reply came in.)
UP!
Salman
Award FEEDBACK
1. though salman
rushdie got knighted for "services to literature", he's no great
writer as writer; lets' remove that possibility immediately. he has some
brilliant width but very little depth. he is flash, mentally
sophisticated, wide and superficial. what's that got to do with it?
well, if he'd been a shakespeare then there might have been an exceptional
reason to 'make a stand' and risk inflaming the second largest religion in the
world with whom we're practically at war.
but listen, while it's our duty to speak up when freedom of speech is
threatened, royally blessing a venomous attitude to muslims when our armies
have just slaughtered a million of them (for no apparent reason) is just, well,
the english dictionary doesn't possess a disgusted enough world for it.
This is nonsense, I'm afraid.
First, you don't need to be another Shakespeare to be
knighted.
>> my point was that, if we'd been talking
about a shakespeare, THEN it might be ok to go ahead and give salman the gong
DESPITE the world situation. but he's VERY FAR from being that and
therefore it is a foolish or aggressive move.
Rushdie's writing is certainly of a high enough
standard for a knighthood judged against current levels.
>> it's a separate argument. i don't
myself agree. and watching tv tonight, of the ten people out of a hundred
who seem to have read one of his books, 9 of them didn't finish.
Secondly, he's a Muslim himself (or was)
>> but THAT is crucial. if he was STILL
a muslim, well, there might be some point.
so we should respect his right to talk about his own
culture any way that he wants, just as we'd do for any Jewish or Catholic
writers respectively.
>> on a level surface i of course agree with
u. but a million dead is not something small and irrelevant, izzit?
I agree totally about the war in Iraq,
but that has nothing at all to do with the rights and wrongs of Satanic Verses.
>> not only iraq.
palestine too. afghanistan.
and others, indeed all the arab countries.
after all, we're in some kinda relationship.
if we want a happy marriage there are times when truth can be said and times
when it isn't sensible. just sensible how about that?
2.
Hi!
Well, you obviously don't think much of Rushdie's
writing but others obviously do. I think you'd find most people wouldn't
get through a Milton poem or a
Tolstoy novel, but this means nothing in terms of their quality.
>> it doesn't in itself prove they're any
good tho.
You also often find some of the greatest literature is
before its time.
>> have u read him? i've only read one
of his novels and it was as i described it.
The point is that enough people adjudged Rushdie's
work of sufficient quality for the knighthood.
As to his not being a Muslim any more (maybe he still
is, I don't know), surely we would not deny a lapsed catholic to criticise the Vatican.
>> but not if we'd just killed a million of
them that's my point. do u or do u not count a million killed as some
kinda statement? so we should be listening for a while NOT
advertising our celebration of their most bitter critic.
Neither, then, should we deny THIS man's right to
criticize aspects of Islam.
>> not when we just killed a million etc
that's our only disagreement.
Apart from the fact that Satanic Verses was only one
of quite a varied output, (if I remember rightly, his next book was for
children) why are we accepting the word of the extremist Muslims against a
liberal minded man such as Rushdie that what he says is blasphemy!?
>> i don't accept ANY of that. it's
simple good manners to me. if i kill a million of your friends it would
be rude to start criticising your clothes style, yes? leave it for a
while till things have settled.
Would we go to the extreme-right Christians of
Southern States USA
to decide whether someone writing about Christianity was blasphemous or not?
Of-course we wouldn't.
>> all this agreed.
I think it's good that whoever decides on knighthoods
had the strength of character to ignore the rantings of extremists and 'state
of the world' and judge the literature of this man simply by standards of
aesthetics, whether you agree with their opinion of him or not which,
of-course, you are at liberty to do.
>> all this agreed, but not while the killing
is going on.
The fact that you would have condoned this had Rushdie
been another Shakespeare actually destroys the logic of your own argument.
>> well... my point was that if rushdie had
been in that class (which he ABSOLUTELY is not and nobody is claiming he is)
THEN it might have been okay to do it. am saying leave it till later -
that's if there ever is a later. when things settle down. ask the
half a million mothers.
I deprecate the pressure put on Denmark
after THAT cartoon. OK. We may say that it was in bad taste, but
that didn't mean that those extremists were right to react in the way they did.
>> these are 2 separate points. i don't
think we must be rude to them just because we refuse to care how they
react. we must have our own standards and one of them is being
civil. and indeed free speech relies on civility of some kind. and
when you've just slaughtered a million (remember that no. in everything u
write) it's not civil to then add "btw your religion is totally fukked
too" yes?
Where I agree with you, however, is that it was
totally immoral to bomb 100,000 plus Iraqis to death to give them 'democracy',
and (I'm Jewish, by the way), equally immoral to do what Israel
has been doing to the Palestinians for the last couple of decades or more.
>> i am so glad and respectful to hear u say
that. did u have any reaction to the other stuff i was sounding off about?
To return to the main topic, however, once you start
to pander to extremists of ANY type, that's where the thin end of the wedge of
loss of freedom of speech begins.
>> totally agreed. but that
million? if it was only a thousand dead? ten thousand? a
hundred thou...? it just feels wrong. it IS wrong.
To show the logic of my argument...
Should we have censored anti-Nazi writings before the
war on the grounds of the 'state of the world' for fear of offending Hitler and
his minions?
>> no. because we hadn't occupied THEIR
country. if we'd invaded germany,
killed 200000 germans and arrested and tortured hitler then i woulda said:
lay low on the anti nazi stuff for a while lads :)
Earl Okin. Virginia,
US.
UP!
Young Americans Leaning Left
As Post
Dinosaur Era Marches On
According to a New York
Times/CBS News/MTV poll, .young Americans are more likely than the general
public to favour
- a government-run universal health care insurance
system
- an open-door policy on immigration
- the legalisation of gay rights
They are also more
likely to say the war in Iraq
is heading to a successful conclusion.
>> they've see so many movies where
"our" soldiers win in the final frame i guess.
The poll also found that substantially more Americans aged 17 -29
than four years ago are paying attention to the presidential race. But
they appeared to be really familiar with only two of the candidates, Senators Barack Obama and Hillary
Rodham Clinton, both Democrats.
They have continued a long-term drift away from the Republican Party. And
although they are just as worried as the general population about the outlook
for the country and think their generation is likely to be worse off than
that of their parents, they retain a belief that their votes can make a
difference.
54% intend to vote a Democrat for
president in 2008. They share with the public a negative view of
President Bush, who has a 28% approval rating with this group, and of the
Republican Party. They hold a markedly more positive view of Democrats
than they do of Republicans.
At a time when Democrats have made gains after years in which Republicans have
dominated Washington,
young Americans appear to lean slightly more to the left than the general
population: 28% described themselves as liberal,
compared with 20% of the nation at large. And 27% called themselves conservative, compared with 32% of the general
public.
44% believed same-sex couples should be permitted to get married, compared with
28% of the general public. They are more
likely than their elders to support the legalisation of possession of small
amounts of marijuana.
62% said they would support a universal, government-sponsored national health
care insurance program; 47% of the general public holds that view. And
30% said “Americans should always welcome new immigrants,"�
while 24% of the general public holds that view.
In one potential sign of shifting attitudes, respondents, by overwhelming
margins, said they believed the nation was prepared to elect as president a woman, a black person
or someone who admitted to having used marijuana.
But they did not believe Americans would elect someone who had used cocaine or who was a Mormon. Mr. Obama has suggested he used
cocaine as a young man. Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts and a
candidate for the Republican nomination, is a Mormon.
42% thought it was likely or very likely the nation would reinstate a military
draft over the next few years. 87% said they opposed a
draft. They thought Republicans were more likely to go for a draft.
Many have a bleak view about their own future
and the direction the country is heading: 70% said the country was on the wrong
track, while 48% feared their generation would be worse off than their
parents'. But this generation of Americans is not cynical: 77% thought
the votes of their generation would have a great bearing on who became the next
president.
>> tho they probably don't yet know that
what a pol says doesn't at all define what he'll end up doing. that's
when the cynicism might kick in. or the evolution.
58% said they were paying attention to the election campaign. By
contrast, at this point in the 2004 campaign, only 35% said they were doing so.
43% held an unfavourable view of Mrs. Clinton,
a number that reflects the tide of resistance she faces nationwide. By
contrast, only 19% had an unfavorable view of Mr. Obama.
UP!
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